Yesterday, I said that I think the anecdotal experience of many people is enough to support the idea that God probably exists. (I said a lot of other things, too)
Let me addend and clarify, if possible.
When I admit that I think the existence of a divine… something is likely, I want to be clear about a few things I am NOT saying.
I cannot find any evidence in the subjective/anecdotal/narrative experiences mentioned to reasonably suppose that God conforms to any version of which I am aware. If there is some reason to believe that God is there, I can’t find any reason to believe that we are aware of God’s attributes. I make no presumption that God is moral, truthful, good, loving, or cares one bit about us. (I make no presumption against those things either... I just don't pretend to know or to have any evidence).
I cannot find any reasonable evidence that God cares whether I believe or not.
I cannot find any reasonable evidence that the existence of God (or even a belief in the possibility of that existence) brings with it an impelling commitment to action. i.e. God's existence does not reasonably support a theology, philosophical system of beliefs, or a laundry list of rules and dos and don'ts.
I categorically cannot find any evidence that God wants me to participate in one “spiritual” society over another. i.e. God doesn’t care in the least bit which church I go to, nor whether I go to church at all.
I think, I hope, this begins to explain why I agree with the conclusion that there is no evidence for believing in a theology, but not the premise that there is no reason to believe in God.
I think a case for the existence of just about anything can be built quite effectively on the subjective experience of interaction with that thing. Perception is reality, right?
However, that subjective experience is… subjective. It carries no moral plan and cannot transform itself into an objective reality.
This is where I want to go: The difference between objective and subjective.
Objective truth is truth that is independent of the interaction of the subject with the experience. Your relationship with the object in question does not change the nature of the object, nor the measurable truth.
Subjective truth on the other hand is contained in the relationship between the two objects. You are the subject, and the “truth” of the matter is the experience of interaction. Further, that experience is only contained in the interaction itself, and has no bearing on the objective truth, nor does it have any bearing on the subjective truth of an interaction between another subject and the same object.
My wife and I have a relationship. That relationship exists. It only exists in our interaction with each other. It has no bearing on my objective existence (I exist without her), nor does it have any bearing on her relationship with her mother (a fact that I would have been smart to recognize early in our relationship).
Everything about my relationship with her is subjective. Nevertheless, it is real. Subjective truth, I would submit, is the beautiful part of life. In fact, beautiful is, itself, an inherently subjective word.
If I have an interaction with God, it is definitively subjective. If God tells me what to do, it is only relevant within the context of my interaction with God. The second I try to extend the imperative relevance of that interaction to my interactions with anyone else… the second I start to proselytize, I am trying to turn my subjective experience into something objective. This is where I will gladly stand with the atheists.
I find (at this point) that the proclamations of people about the objective nature of God, based on their subjective experiences, are inherently flawed in this problem. It is clear that there is no objectivity in the discussion of God’s attributes or aspirations for us. As much as I appreciate attempts to say otherwise, I don’t see how a discussion of the existence of deity cannot be subjective in nature. It simply cannot be demonstrated that God is there objectively.
Ok… [wiping sweat from furrowed brow]
To summarize:
I find the weight of the anecdotal evidence to be compelling as to the probable existence of something that we would call divine.
All of that anecdotal evidence (taken collectively) contains no implication of some divine agenda for mankind.
All of that anecdotal evidence (taken collectively) doesn’t say anything to me about what God wants me to do, if indeed, God wants anything from me at all.
Is it useful then to tentatively acknowledge God’s existence?
I think the benefit is this: If I recognize that God can exist independent of the people who claim authority in the divine narrative; if I recognize that divine existence doesn’t necessarily go hand in hand with human preachers; then I am free to let go of the implications they want me to cherry pick.
Ok, I'm going to try to paraphrase your conclusion to see if I understood you correctly, and I will do so in sentence fragments, not fully formed thoughts:
ReplyDeleteNo objectively evidenced god. Nothing that can be claimed by one individual that can be relayed to another as evidently real. We must each rely on our own subjective experience for whatever conclusions we draw.
I'm with you on those points (so long as I correctly paraphrased). But what are you then calling 'God'? Is this necessarily something outside of individuals as you also seem to indicate? That would seem to be making a claim about an objective characteristic. Or do you consider it possible that the 'something divine' you are talking about is simply an experience of the human mind that is commonly labeled as 'God'?
You talk about your relationship with your wife being a subjective experience, which it is, but we could objectively and separably confirm the existence of your wife. On the other hand it is possible to have a relationship with a fictional person (imaginary friend, delusional fantasy, feelings of bonding and closeness with characters on TV). The subjective experience is certainly still real, but the other person doesn't have to be. Having a relationship or subjective experience with 'the divine' or 'God' doesn't speak to the existence of 'the divine' or 'God'. It only speaks to the existence of the experience.
Would you clarify what you consider 'God' to be, even if only in broad strokes of possibilities based solely on the subjective bounds you've already laid out?
Gale,
ReplyDeleteFantastic points. I completely agree that the something divine could be (and possibly/probably frequently is) simply an experience of the human mind.
I agree on your assessment of the nature of relationships as well. A relationship with a fictional person is probably just as subjectively real as a "real" relationship.
Finally, I am trying awfully hard to not consider God to be... anything. I have tried hard to not use gender specific pronouns or make assumptions about attributes (although sometimes I feel I must, and resort to the linguistic style of using male pronouns in non-gender specific uses).
If anything, I am convinced that, as opposed to Joseph Smith's first lecture on faith, it is completely unnecessary (and mostly impossible) to have an understanding of the nature and attributes of God.
Even if God revealed himself to me in a form that (not surprisingly) resembled my own, there is a mountain of contradictory narrative against those attributes. I could not conclude, based on my own experience, that my experience was valid, and thus invalidate the rest.
I submit that it is objectively impossible to prove God's existence without the consistent cooperation of God in the process. When we pull back the curtain, he needs to be there, and he needs to be there every time, and his attributes need to be the same every time.
This clearly is not happening.
I went to bed last night really pondering on why this seems like an important point to understand. I think now I have a good answer, and I will address that tonight.
I'm calling it The Transfer of Hubris.